unpaid bills & removing braces

Discussion in 'Dental Archive' started by Barbara Kaplan, Feb 19, 2004.

  1. A friend of my niece's reports that his orthodontist refuses to remove
    his braces because his parents can't pay their bill. I can understand
    denying further treatment, but isn't it dangerous to leave untended
    appliances in a person's mouth? Is this sort of neglect illegal,
    unethical or just par for the course?
     
    Barbara Kaplan, Feb 19, 2004
    #1
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  2. Yes all of the above!

    JOEL
    --
    Joel M. Eichen, .
    Philadelphia PA

    DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS:

    *********

    Dental health-related material
    is provided for information purposes
    only and does not necessarily
    represent endorsement by or an official
    position of the SciMedDentistry gang
    or any other official agency either
    actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso.

    Advice on the treatment or care
    of an individual patient should
    be obtained through consultation
    with a dentist who has examined
    that patient or is familiar with
    that patient's dental history.

    STANDARD DISCLAIMER
     
    Joel M. Eichen D.D.S., Feb 19, 2004
    #2
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  3. I would document in writing to the orthodontist and send Return
    Receipt Requested, just in case of damage to the teeth.
    --
    Joel M. Eichen, .
    Philadelphia PA

    DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS:

    *********

    Dental health-related material
    is provided for information purposes
    only and does not necessarily
    represent endorsement by or an official
    position of the SciMedDentistry gang
    or any other official agency either
    actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso.

    Advice on the treatment or care
    of an individual patient should
    be obtained through consultation
    with a dentist who has examined
    that patient or is familiar with
    that patient's dental history.

    STANDARD DISCLAIMER
     
    Joel M. Eichen D.D.S., Feb 19, 2004
    #3
  4. there is NO law that says I have to remove braces from a patient who owes me
    money.

    Par for the course.
    Of course being a deadbeat seems to be par for the course too.
    "Barbara Kaplan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
     
    Jeffrey Krantz, Feb 22, 2004
    #4
  5. Joel, congrats on undermining everyone here.
    The deadbeat wants the orthodontist to remove the braces on a completed case
    without being paid.
    There is NO legal obligation to do so
    "Joel M. Eichen D.D.S." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    wrote:
     
    Jeffrey Krantz, Feb 22, 2004
    #5
  6. Barbara Kaplan

    The Webby Guest

    The patient is (apparently) a minor. The parents are responsible for
    the finances of the treatment plan. What is the *actual patient*
    supposed to do??? Surely you don't think the kid should remove the
    orthodontics in the privacy of the home...

    Whether or not the parents are "deadbeats" is something that you can't
    prove here in smd. And whether or not this case even exists is not
    something you're likely to prove *here*.

    Let's just say this kid is 16 years old. In two years, can you bill the
    18 year old for what the parents never paid since the orthodontic
    appliances are *in the mouth of the 18 year old not the parents*???

    It seems that when doctors get into care that is going to span a period
    of years, a relationship should have been established along the way to
    prepare for financial hardship.

    I do wonder how much money is a stake in this case. It doesn't matter
    what kind of healthcare you practice, there will be bills that will not
    get paid. It isn't just a problem for orthodontists.

    TW

    In article <9C3_b.82715$>,
    "Jeffrey Krantz" <> wrote:
    --
    --
    Sabra Broock <>
     
    The Webby, Feb 22, 2004
    #6
  7. Actually I had a similar case,,,,,,, the first molar rotted out for a
    lovely young patient and someone removed it and moved the orthodontic
    band to the second bicuspid ,,,,, rampant decay on the anteriors, etc.

    My decision was to remove all the bands and restore the decay FIRST.

    No one agreed, but believe me it happened!

    Documenting care and lack thereof is necessary ,,,,,,,,,, if damages
    occur, then the health care provider better be on firm ground!



    JOEL


    On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:08:53 GMT, "Jeffrey Krantz" <>
    wrote:
    --
    Joel M. Eichen, .
    Philadelphia PA

    DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS:

    *********

    Dental health-related material
    is provided for information purposes
    only and does not necessarily
    represent endorsement by or an official
    position of the SciMedDentistry gang
    or any other official agency either
    actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso.

    Advice on the treatment or care
    of an individual patient should
    be obtained through consultation
    with a dentist who has examined
    that patient or is familiar with
    that patient's dental history.

    STANDARD DISCLAIMER
     
    Joel M. Eichen D.D.S., Feb 22, 2004
    #7
  8. My take on EVERY case ,,,,,,,,, first I decide what is best in terms
    of therapy with no knowledge about whether it is paid or not paid
    ,,,,,,,,,, then I do what is required ,,,,,,,,,


    JOEL
    --
    Joel M. Eichen, .
    Philadelphia PA

    DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS:

    *********

    Dental health-related material
    is provided for information purposes
    only and does not necessarily
    represent endorsement by or an official
    position of the SciMedDentistry gang
    or any other official agency either
    actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso.

    Advice on the treatment or care
    of an individual patient should
    be obtained through consultation
    with a dentist who has examined
    that patient or is familiar with
    that patient's dental history.

    STANDARD DISCLAIMER
     
    Joel M. Eichen D.D.S., Feb 22, 2004
    #8
  9. On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:08:07 GMT, "Jeffrey Krantz" <>
    wrote:
    Public Law #25467-3 section b ............

    Kidding.

    Actually, if removing the braces is necessary to prevent further
    damage and further damage occurs,,,,,,,, guess who gets slammed?

    You.

    --
    Joel M. Eichen, .
    Philadelphia PA

    DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS:

    *********

    Dental health-related material
    is provided for information purposes
    only and does not necessarily
    represent endorsement by or an official
    position of the SciMedDentistry gang
    or any other official agency either
    actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso.

    Advice on the treatment or care
    of an individual patient should
    be obtained through consultation
    with a dentist who has examined
    that patient or is familiar with
    that patient's dental history.

    STANDARD DISCLAIMER
     
    Joel M. Eichen D.D.S., Feb 22, 2004
    #9
  10. Barbara Kaplan

    The Webby Guest

    And slammed it should be.

    TW

    In article <>,
    Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote:
    --
    --
    Sabra Broock <>
     
    The Webby, Feb 22, 2004
    #10
  11. Barbara Kaplan

    WB Guest

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:17:40 -0800, The Webby <> wrote:

    Disagree on this point, if I'm not paid the patient wins a trip...

    ....down to the courthouse to see the judge.

    Small claims court is a wonderful tool.
    If the amount is over $5K it's called grand theft.
    --

    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
    "Pathetic Earthlings...if you had known anything about the true
    nature of the universe, anything at all, you would have hidden
    from it in terror." - Emperor Ming
    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
     
    WB, Feb 22, 2004
    #11
  12. Barbara Kaplan

    Tony Bad Guest

    "The Webby" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    The law is on your side on this one, but I feel it is wrong. People can screw me
    for payment, yet I am "ethically" obligated to continue to provide care for
    them. I have been through this, and did the "ethical" thing, because there is
    little option for me. The courts seem to feel I should paint a big target on my
    ass with a sign that says "feel free to screw me, the courts are on your side".
    If you feel that is the way it "should be", I can only hope you get screwed in
    this manner some day and come out feeling it "should be" this way. I have had
    non-payers many times and get tell you with absolute certainty that NONE of them
    screwed me due to financial hardship. People in genuine dire straights will tell
    me, and I will work with them...people who just don't pay their bills are
    usually habitual offenders who do so as a way to pay for what they really can't
    afford.

    Sensitive subject...there is nothing like the feeling of caring and being
    trusting and taking one up the ass as a reward.

    T
     
    Tony Bad, Feb 22, 2004
    #12
  13. Barbara Kaplan

    The Webby Guest

    That's why small claim courts exist. I have no problem with that
    whatsoever. Believe me. I know all about patients not paying their
    doctor bills.

    TW

    In article <>,
    WB <> wrote:
    --
    --
    Sabra Broock <>
     
    The Webby, Feb 22, 2004
    #13
  14. Barbara Kaplan

    WB Guest

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:48:28 GMT, "Tony Bad" <> wrote:

    Without the consideration of a reach-around ?
    --

    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
    "Pathetic Earthlings...if you had known anything about the true
    nature of the universe, anything at all, you would have hidden
    from it in terror." - Emperor Ming
    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
     
    WB, Feb 22, 2004
    #14
  15. Barbara Kaplan

    The Webby Guest

    Well... it is a sensitive subject. Did you mean to say this to *me*????
    T wrote in part in his reply to my post:
    T, I don't think I should have to tell you what kind of bills I got
    stuck with by a particular dental professional... a lifetime of bills
    .... **and** he was paid in full for his "care".

    TW




    In article <MX5_b.45007$>,
    "Tony Bad" <> wrote:
    --
    --
    Sabra Broock <>
     
    The Webby, Feb 22, 2004
    #15
  16. Barbara Kaplan

    The Webby Guest

    Using a minor child as a patient-hostage in a financial dispute between
    doctor and parent/s seems like a very cruel and unethical thing to do.
    Patients have been known to walk out of hospitals against medical
    advice. Maybe some of them have done so because they couldn't imagine
    how they could ever pay the bill.

    Oh well ...

    TW

    In article <>,
    The Webby <> wrote:
    --
    --
    Sabra Broock <>
     
    The Webby, Feb 22, 2004
    #16
  17. Barbara Kaplan

    Tony Bad Guest

    "The Webby" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    screwed
    So do you feel that is the way it "should be"? Those were your words, not mine.
    I take exception (and perhaps I misunderstood your words) to the concept that
    anyone should be obligated to continuing care when they are not being paid. I
    know that is reality, but I will never agree that it is the way it ":should be".

    I don't feel your situation is the way it "should be", but your situation and
    the question of the original poster are two different things. You describe
    paying for care that didn't work, the original poster took no issue with the
    care, only the fact the doctor wasn't willing to finish without getting paid. As
    I said, I am well aware of my legal obligations in such situations, but don't
    ask me to like it.

    T
     
    Tony Bad, Feb 22, 2004
    #17
  18. Barbara Kaplan

    Tony Bad Guest

    "The Webby" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    Hostage is a very strong word. Not removing braces is not going to harm anyone
    any more than putting them on in the first place did. At worst it may be an
    inconvenience. Leaving them on a patient who probably has wanted them off since
    day may be the only leverage a doctor may have. For a reluctant payer, removing
    the last factor that may prompt payment pretty much guarantees you will be
    screwed.

    Can't and won't are two very different things. In my practice, I find a way to
    help people who can't, which is perhaps why I resent those who won't so much.

    T
     
    Tony Bad, Feb 22, 2004
    #18
  19. Yup!

    If I see something bad or dangerous ....... I DO NOT CARE who paid or
    did not pay ........


    --
    Joel M. Eichen, .
    Philadelphia PA

    DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS:

    *********

    Dental health-related material
    is provided for information purposes
    only and does not necessarily
    represent endorsement by or an official
    position of the SciMedDentistry gang
    or any other official agency either
    actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso.

    Advice on the treatment or care
    of an individual patient should
    be obtained through consultation
    with a dentist who has examined
    that patient or is familiar with
    that patient's dental history.

    STANDARD DISCLAIMER
     
    Joel M. Eichen D.D.S., Feb 22, 2004
    #19
  20. Barbara Kaplan

    The Webby Guest

    Yes, "hostage" is a strong word. I suppose this is one of those times
    when I wonder who advocates for the poor kid who may just have deadbeat
    parents ... or who may have parents who just aren't doing the right
    thing for their child. Do add insult to injury, it isn't likely the
    patient will learn a positive lesson from the whole thing. That saddens
    me.

    TW

    In article <IB6_b.45190$>,
    "Tony Bad" <> wrote:
    --
    --
    Sabra Broock <>
     
    The Webby, Feb 22, 2004
    #20
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