Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

>
> We suggest you find a friend with a digitial camera and get some
> second opinions here ......
>
> Joel

I agree!

Those "digitial" cameras are even better than the digital ones! ;-)

- dentaldoc

On 15 Aug 2003 10:31:00 -0700, (Bill Combs) wrote:

>Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

>
>
>I agree!
>
>Those "digitial" cameras are even better than the digital ones! ;-)
>
>- dentaldoc

But not to be confused with the digitalis ones !

Okay, I see where I went wrong! Bridge ~ #3 through number 8.

*************

Identifiers deleted.......

QUESTIONS:

1. The upper right side appears to not contact the lower right side.
Is this correct?

HOWEVER, the left side appears to make good contact. There is no
bridge there so I assume this is your normal bite. This means the
anterior bridge (5.6.7.8) is not interfering with the bite.

You wrote:

The lab thinks my bite for the original mold was off.

REPLY:

I do not believe this is so. Otherwise the left side would not meet so
precisely.

*****

YOU WROTE:

The difficult thing is that my gum on the right side is raised
significantly.

REPLY:

Said differently,


2. You have some ridge recession meaning recession of the bone
underlying where tooth #6 and #7 were removed.

3. #8 almost matches crown #9 (not part of the bridge, right?) and is
slightlky larger to blend with #7 and #6 which are considerably
larger.

4. The only possibility would be to cut back the necks of all of the
teeth on the bridsge which would give a decided "shrunken-back
appearance." Whether or not that would be better or worse depends on
the smile line and how much shows when you laugh and speak.

5. The overbite and overjet is a result of all of this. Overjet is the
horizontal "jetting out" of the teeth you mention below.

SUMMARY:

How does it "feel?" I mean the bite. I would tel lthe dentist you
realize it is a difficult case and he did whatever he could to
maximize esthetics.

Then tell him you will live with it for three months and then come
back and re-evaluate.

I have a sense you will adjust and it will be okay.


Please keep us informed.


Joel



Hi,
What do you think? The difficult thing is that my gum on the right
side is raised significantly. To get a straight smile the lab added
some length. This length isn't adding to the protrusion problem.
Teeth# 5,6,7,8 normally have an over bite. 7,8 are jutting out about
3mm more than 5,6. The lab thinks my bite for the original mold was
off.
I'd like your opinion on the bridge and what you think is going on in
my mouth if the first place.
~deleted~


Hi,

I'm sorry if I've already sent you this. I can't recall if it already
went out because I don't see it in my sent file.

What do you think? The difficult thing is that my gum on the right
side is raised significantly. To get a straight smile the lab added
some length. This length isn't adding to the protrusion problem.
Teeth# 5,6,7,8 normally have an over bite. 7,8 on the bridge are
jutting out about 3mm more than 5,6. The lab thinks my bite for the
original mold was off.

I have a consult this coming Tuesday - noon regarding bridge.
Dentistry is not my forte and anything you can tell me will be
appreciated.

I've sent emails with the attachment to the addresses below.
Attachment should be viewed 50% - 100% for reading added text.
Thank you so very much.
~deleted~





On 12 Aug 2003 11:03:38 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:

>New permanent bridge has overbite, poor bite, tooth length issues --
>it's the kind of can of worms I hate going through but I have too.
>
>My new six tooth permanent bridge, #3 through #8 has exaddurated my
>over bite and I hate it. It feels wrong and I now have more problems
>than ever pronouncing my s's since, the overbite in now about 3mm
>worse. The teeth are bulky and sticking outward instead of contouring
>in as on the opposite side.
>
>If that weren't enough there's no contact between 3 through 5 with
>teeth below. The lab simply made the teeth, which looked good on the
>mold, to short for my mouth.
>
>I'm 65 and this bridge is the fourth over a number of years so the gum
>line has been raised quite a bit on that (my left) side - this leave
>the lab making the teeth too short to match the other side. I went to
>the lab before it the tooth was permanently glued in place to try to
>get them to elongate the front teeth in particular since the bridge
>game me a slanty smile -- which I hate.
>
>The lab added some length to the teeth which helped some. This added
>length is not responsible for the larger over bite. The teeth were
>way over the bottom ones to begin with.
>
>Anyway the bridge is in now about 4 days and I'm miserable. I'm
>trying to contact my dentist via phone since yesterday without success
>yet. I plan on asking him to do the bridge over because, aside of the
>tooth length problems and the jutting out of the front teeth,
>particularly #5 and #6, the lab thought I also hadn't made a good
>impression for the mold.
>
>Another bridge will again cause some shrinkage, needing the teeth to
>be even taller to create a straight smile and this is where my Dentist
>seems to to not get it.
>
>I imagine I can't demand my money back and go else where.
>
>After living four days with this bridge which I hate, I don't want to
>go the free three crowns plan.
>
>I'm still waiting to either hear from the DDS and may have to make a
>consultation appointment to get his attention.
>Thanks for reading this.
>Feeling glum

--
Joel M. Eichen, .
Philadelphia PA

STANDARD DISCLAIMER applies:
<You fill it in>

Joel: Okay, I see where I went wrong! Bridge ~ #3 through number 8.
*************
Identifiers deleted.......
QUESTIONS:
1. The upper right side appears to not contact the lower right side.
Is this correct?
HOWEVER, the left side appears to make good contact. There is no
bridge there so I assume this is your normal bite. This means the
anterior bridge (5.6.7.8) is not interfering with the bite.

Tedi: True, the left side makes good contact and this is what I wanted
to show you, plus the over jetting which unfortunately didn't show up
to well because I neglected to pull my bottom lip out to show how much
it over jets.
Here's what's in my mouth to begin with:

My upper teeth consist of 3 through 14, with a bridge on 12 through 14
needing replacement. 14 is a crown with a 'cantle'for 13 which has a a
pointy gismo that fits neatly into a small hole in 12. 12 and 13 which
surround the cantle are always sore. This issue there is that it needs
replacement. I want to finish this bridge before replacing that
bridge.
The lower teeth are 30 through 17.
There is a new lower bridge on my left side (new this year) 20 through
17. #18 and #19 are missing.
During out first consult the DDS remarked he liked the lower bridge 20
though 17 immensely. He didn't make it and he didn't know it was new.
His colleague who recently left to start his wow practice made it.
After the permanent insertion of the 6 crown bridge, he remarked in an
annoying tone that the bridge 20 through 17 was too low and 'worn
down' and blamed it for being problematic for the new bridge. This
contradiction from his earlier assessment confused issues for me and
upsets me a bit that a brand new bridge is upsetting the apple cart.
I'm really hesitant now about what to do about the upper teeth needing
replacement there. It sounds as if he wishes the lower bridge were
made higher! As a retiree on Social Security as my only income, I
can't afford to replace a brand new bridge to accommodate the six
tooth bridge. Please bear in mind that #14 and #12 cause me sleepless
nights. I went to the DDS for this and was informed that from ex rays,
he (former)DDS assessed that the 12 and 14 could wait as far an any
damage was concerned because they looked healthy, but that 20 through
17 definitely couldn't. He recommended they be immediately replaced,
and that this be followed by the replacement of #3 through #8. I have
no qualms with this diagnosis since I could see the damage myself on
the ex rays.
Unfortunately, I didn't get the complete 3/4 photo I wanted, which was
to show exactly how much over jet there is on 6,7,8. I see where I
needed to pull out the lower lip when this bottom shot was taken.
This over jetting
1)aggravates speech problems,
2)causes uncomfortable incessant tongue rubbing teeth habits,
3) Is unaesthetic. From this 3/4 angle I wanted you to see it's
apparent the teeth don't conform to the other side and the over
jetting over my lip is quite ugly.

Joel: You (Tedi) wrote: The lab thinks my bite for the original mold
was off.
REPLY:
I do not believe this is so. Otherwise the left side would not meet so
precisely.

Tedi: Then why did the teeth fit the mold and not in my mouth?
*****

Joel: YOU WROTE:
The difficult thing is that my gum on the right side is raised
significantly.
REPLY:
Said differently,
2. You have some ridge recession meaning recession of the bone
underlying where tooth #6 and #7 were removed.
3. #8 almost matches crown #9 (not part of the bridge, right?) and is
slightly larger to blend with #7 and #6 which are considerably
larger.
Tedi: Exactly. I asked the lab to do this. It didn't add to the over
jet, which I asked him to grind back -- and he didn't. His explanation
wasn't clear. Only that he thought my bite in my mouth was different
than the one on the mold. I asked him to please study the cast of the
original bridge before it was drilled off at it was 'almost'perfect He
did and noticed, despite the teeth being longer than the other side
that 6,7, and 8 were "flatter" or not jetting out causing a
'space'behind. It would have meant lost time for him and too much work
to 'grind back' 6, 7, 8 because the space behind 6,7,8 was still open.
He'd have had to add more porcelain here and also to the length of
3,4, and 5. to close the gap. This was too complicated for him to want
to get into it and he said it was the Dentists problem.
Joel: The only possibility would be to cut back the necks of all of
the
teeth on the bridge which would give a decided "shrunken-back
appearance." Whether or not that would be better or worse depends on
the smile line and how much shows when you laugh and speak.
Tedi: If by cutting back you mean the same as what I meant when saying
'grinding back' I think the above sentence addresses this. another
thought I have is that grinding or cutting back the amount needed may
have come to close to the underlying metal and the cause would have
been lost. Perhaps the lab guy knew this. There were TERRIFIC
language and cultural problems between us. That's not to say another
lab would have solved the problem any better, but since the last one
had - and he was from another culture also, I know it can be done. I
just found out my DDS was a cosmetic DDS at one time so I am indeed
surprised.
5. The overbite and over jet is a result of all of this. Over jet is
the
horizontal "jetting out" of the teeth you mention below.
SUMMARY:
How does it "feel?" I mean the bite.


Tedi: Horribe! There is no bite at all on the new bridge side and
quite a bit of pressure is put all on my left side causing the 12 and
14 to hurt more.
The offer of three new crowns to close the bite meant well but "free"
anything can't solve the jetting out problem which FEELS awful to my
tongue, LOOKS awful to my and others eyes, and SOUNDS bad when I
speak. I can't stress theses three issues enough.

Joel: I would tell the dentist you
realize it is a difficult case and he did whatever he could to
maximize esthetics.

Tedi: I don't agree. To say otherwise would be a lie. He sent me to
the lab at MY request, that's all he did. He was willing to
permenantly cement the bridge in place the momement I arrived, crooked
smile and all, until I physically stopped the assistant from
destroying the temporary bridge and I became quite upset ove the
slanty teeth.
Joel. Then tell him you will live with it for three months and then
come
back and re-evaluate. The issue of the upper
I have a sense you will adjust and it will be okay.


Tedi: Telling him I'll live with it for three months before
re-evaluating will do two things: prolong the issue and prolong the
pain in 12 and 14 from biting down on that left side only for another
three months. It's only been a week and the pain is getting worse day
by day. Yes I would accept the three lower teeth to close the bite
during this three months period if the DDS is prepared to accept my
response in three months time no matter what the response.
Reminder: This over jetting

1)aggravates speech problems, (3 months of severe lisping?)
2)causes uncomfortable incessant tongue rubbing teeth habits, (I doubt
I'd get used to the feel of unsymmetrical teeth. My tongue feels
'lost' is space on the right side.
3) Is unaesthetic. From this 3/4 angle I wanted you to see it's
apparent the teeth don't conform to the other side and the over
jetting in my opened mouth while speaking is the answer to the
question in my mind concerning my entire person: What's wrong with
this picture? She lisps and has protruding teeth on that one side.

Joel: Please keep us informed.

Thanks for your opinion which has helped me gather my thoughts on this
issue. I wonder if others might say something else? I understand the
wisdom of the advise about telling him I'll live with it for three
months and then come back and re-evaluate. And it would be good advise
if I thought there was any chance it would work, but I already know
what's ahead.
It may leave the DDS thinking I feel he's competent and that I really
trust he may be right, and why not opt for a longer trial rather than
go through the pain, misery and aggravation all over again in an
effort to have me feel comfortable and satisfied for what could be the
rest of my life?

Truth is: By saying one thing and thinking the opposite I'd be making
making a fool out of the man with this dishonesty. I have far more
respect for my fellow humans then to secretly lie to gain their
temporary favor and in return, I expect the same. I want to be treated
with professionalism, not coddled.

I don't think destroying my temporary bridge on that first visit was
professional. How was he going to send the bridge back to the lab for
adjustments without having to make me and his assistant spend a full
hour remaking the six tooth temp?
Obviously he wasn't thinking, or thought I wouldn't notice the
difference if the bridge was not adequate, or he was rushing me for
whatever reason he may have.
Nor do I think the lab people displayed any more professionalism by
acting as if "it were all in my head" - and it was my 'faulty bite' on
the mold that caused the problem (as if I could help that?)

Ethically speaking: I went to him on the first consult, explained the
problems that were ahead and I asked him point blank: Do you think you
can handle this, yes or no? Are you sure?
He said yes, Yes, but apparently was mistaken. Now I'm thinking: if
DDS's video taped their sessions much controvery could be easily
settled by reviewing these tapes.
I simply want him to correct his costly mistake or pay me back and
I'll go elsewhere because: a job worth doing is worth doing well, and
because in the beginning he continually said his only concern was in
making me happy which it turns out is an outright lie.

Sorry if it seems like I'm sounding off to you, I'm not. I'm grateful
for your evaluation though I wish I could afford to see a another DDS
in person for evaluation so he-she could get a better look than you
had with those photos.
The nightmarish thought of redoing this bridge is upsetting me no end.
I shouldn't have to go through all this nonsense. One year ago I
finally got some sort of dental insurance and I paid a visit to the
dentist because #14 and #12 were sore. A gum specialist then did some
scraping - didn't help. Then I had bridge #17 through #20. Then when
finances allowed a few months later I took out a loan and paid the DDS
I now use - since my DDS left the practice for his own elsewhere -

Now I'm told the 17 through 20 are too low, the new bridge feels,
looks and sounds bad, and the original reason for going to the DDS one
year ago remains unsolved. I want this bridge to be OK before
proceding with another. This is so depressing, you have no idea what a
drain this is taking on my emotional and financial resources. I'll
meet with the DDS and another DDS Tuesday and hear what they have to
say after I speak my piece.

Why, I ask you, do dentist's get involved with situations they may hot
be able to handle well in the first place? Why aren't there any
written and signed agreements other than the financial ones? And
regards the DDS and the dental lab, what about pride in workmanship?
That's the big question.
Tedi.
THE END





Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

> Okay, I see where I went wrong! Bridge ~ #3 through number 8.
>
> *************
>
> Identifiers deleted.......
>
> QUESTIONS:
>
> 1. The upper right side appears to not contact the lower right side.
> Is this correct?
>
> HOWEVER, the left side appears to make good contact. There is no
> bridge there so I assume this is your normal bite. This means the
> anterior bridge (5.6.7.8) is not interfering with the bite.
>
> You wrote:
>
> The lab thinks my bite for the original mold was off.
>
> REPLY:
>
> I do not believe this is so. Otherwise the left side would not meet so
> precisely.
>
> *****
>
> YOU WROTE:
>
> The difficult thing is that my gum on the right side is raised
> significantly.
>
> REPLY:
>
> Said differently,
>
>
> 2. You have some ridge recession meaning recession of the bone
> underlying where tooth #6 and #7 were removed.
>
> 3. #8 almost matches crown #9 (not part of the bridge, right?) and is
> slightly larger to blend with #7 and #6 which are considerably
> larger.
>
> 4. The only possibility would be to cut back the necks of all of the
> teeth on the Bridger which would give a decided "shrunken-back
> appearance." Whether or not that would be better or worse depends on
> the smile line and how much shows when you laugh and speak.
>
> 5. The overbite and over jet is a result of all of this. Over jet is the
> horizontal "jetting out" of the teeth you mention below.
>
> SUMMARY:
>
> How does it "feel?" I mean the bite. I would tel lthe dentist you
> realize it is a difficult case and he did whatever he could to
> maximize esthetics.
>
> Then tell him you will live with it for three months and then come
> back and re-evaluate.
>
> I have a sense you will adjust and it will be okay.
>
>
> Please keep us informed.
>
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> Hi,
> What do you think? The difficult thing is that my gum on the right
> side is raised significantly. To get a straight smile the lab added
> some length. This length isn't adding to the protrusion problem.
> Teeth# 5,6,7,8 normally have an over bite. 7,8 are jutting out about
> 3mm more than 5,6. The lab thinks my bite for the original mold was
> off.
> I'd like your opinion on the bridge and what you think is going on in
> my mouth if the first place.
> ~deleted~
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry if I've already sent you this. I can't recall if it already
> went out because I don't see it in my sent file.
>
> What do you think? The difficult thing is that my gum on the right
> side is raised significantly. To get a straight smile the lab added
> some length. This length isn't adding to the protrusion problem.
> Teeth# 5,6,7,8 normally have an over bite. 7,8 on the bridge are
> jutting out about 3mm more than 5,6. The lab thinks my bite for the
> original mold was off.
>
> I have a consult this coming Tuesday - noon regarding bridge.
> Dentistry is not my forte and anything you can tell me will be
> appreciated.
>
> I've sent emails with the attachment to the addresses below.
> Attachment should be viewed 50% - 100% for reading added text.
> Thank you so very much.
> ~deleted~
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 Aug 2003 11:03:38 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:
>

Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

> Okay, I see where I went wrong! Bridge ~ #3 through number 8.
>
> *************
>
> Identifiers deleted.......
>
> QUESTIONS:
>
> 1. The upper right side appears to not contact the lower right side.
> Is this correct?
>
> HOWEVER, the left side appears to make good contact. There is no
> bridge there so I assume this is your normal bite. This means the
> anterior bridge (5.6.7.8) is not interfering with the bite.
>
> You wrote:
>
> The lab thinks my bite for the original mold was off.
>
> REPLY:
>
> I do not believe this is so. Otherwise the left side would not meet so
> precisely.
>
> *****
>
> YOU WROTE:
>
> The difficult thing is that my gum on the right side is raised
> significantly.
>
> REPLY:
>
> Said differently,
>
>
> 2. You have some ridge recession meaning recession of the bone
> underlying where tooth #6 and #7 were removed.
>
> 3. #8 almost matches crown #9 (not part of the bridge, right?) and is
> slightlky larger to blend with #7 and #6 which are considerably
> larger.
>
> 4. The only possibility would be to cut back the necks of all of the
> teeth on the bridsge which would give a decided "shrunken-back
> appearance." Whether or not that would be better or worse depends on
> the smile line and how much shows when you laugh and speak.
>
> 5. The overbite and overjet is a result of all of this. Overjet is the
> horizontal "jetting out" of the teeth you mention below.
>
> SUMMARY:
>
> How does it "feel?" I mean the bite. I would tel lthe dentist you
> realize it is a difficult case and he did whatever he could to
> maximize esthetics.
>
> Then tell him you will live with it for three months and then come
> back and re-evaluate.
>
> I have a sense you will adjust and it will be okay.
>
>
> Please keep us informed.
>
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> Hi,
> What do you think? The difficult thing is that my gum on the right
> side is raised significantly. To get a straight smile the lab added
> some length. This length isn't adding to the protrusion problem.
> Teeth# 5,6,7,8 normally have an over bite. 7,8 are jutting out about
> 3mm more than 5,6. The lab thinks my bite for the original mold was
> off.
> I'd like your opinion on the bridge and what you think is going on in
> my mouth if the first place.
> ~deleted~
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry if I've already sent you this. I can't recall if it already
> went out because I don't see it in my sent file.
>
> What do you think? The difficult thing is that my gum on the right
> side is raised significantly. To get a straight smile the lab added
> some length. This length isn't adding to the protrusion problem.
> Teeth# 5,6,7,8 normally have an over bite. 7,8 on the bridge are
> jutting out about 3mm more than 5,6. The lab thinks my bite for the
> original mold was off.
>
> I have a consult this coming Tuesday - noon regarding bridge.
> Dentistry is not my forte and anything you can tell me will be
> appreciated.
>
> I've sent emails with the attachment to the addresses below.
> Attachment should be viewed 50% - 100% for reading added text.
> Thank you so very much.
> ~deleted~
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 Aug 2003 11:03:38 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:
>

On 17 Aug 2003 13:37:39 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:

>Joel: Okay, I see where I went wrong! Bridge ~ #3 through number 8.
>*************
>Identifiers deleted.......
> QUESTIONS:
>1. The upper right side appears to not contact the lower right side.
>Is this correct?
>HOWEVER, the left side appears to make good contact. There is no
>bridge there so I assume this is your normal bite. This means the
>anterior bridge (5.6.7.8) is not interfering with the bite.
>
>Tedi: True, the left side makes good contact and this is what I wanted
>to show you, plus the over jetting which unfortunately didn't show up
>to well because I neglected to pull my bottom lip out to show how much
>it over jets.
> Here's what's in my mouth to begin with:
>
>My upper teeth consist of 3 through 14, with a bridge on 12 through 14
>needing replacement. 14 is a crown with a 'cantle'for 13 which has a a
>pointy gismo that fits neatly into a small hole in 12. 12 and 13 which
>surround the cantle are always sore. This issue there is that it needs
>replacement. I want to finish this bridge before replacing that
>bridge.
>The lower teeth are 30 through 17.
>There is a new lower bridge on my left side (new this year) 20 through
>17. #18 and #19 are missing.
>During out first consult the DDS remarked he liked the lower bridge 20
>though 17 immensely. He didn't make it and he didn't know it was new.
>His colleague who recently left to start his wow practice made it.
>After the permanent insertion of the 6 crown bridge, he remarked in an
>annoying tone that the bridge 20 through 17 was too low and 'worn
>down' and blamed it for being problematic for the new bridge. This
>contradiction from his earlier assessment confused issues for me and
>upsets me a bit that a brand new bridge is upsetting the apple cart.

Yup, confusing.

My take: This is your bite. Do not monkey with it. Is the overbite
visibly noticeable to others? Family? Friends?

If not, live with it and see if it feels okay. If so, take the doc up
on the three-crown offer in 3-4 months ........

>I'm really hesitant now about what to do about the upper teeth needing
>replacement there. It sounds as if he wishes the lower bridge were
>made higher! As a retiree on Social Security as my only income, I
>can't afford to replace a brand new bridge to accommodate the six
>tooth bridge. Please bear in mind that #14 and #12 cause me sleepless
>nights. I went to the DDS for this and was informed that from ex rays,
>he (former)DDS assessed that the 12 and 14 could wait as far an any
>damage was concerned because they looked healthy,

so its gum irritation but no decay on 12-13-14?

> but that 20 through
>17 definitely couldn't. He recommended they be immediately replaced,
>and that this be followed by the replacement of #3 through #8. I have
>no qualms with this diagnosis since I could see the damage myself on
>the ex rays.

K

>Unfortunately, I didn't get the complete 3/4 photo I wanted, which was
>to show exactly how much over jet there is on 6,7,8.

I can see it and I know exactly what you mean .......

But this is how your teeth are what with the upper bone recession.

> I see where I
>needed to pull out the lower lip when this bottom shot was taken.
>This over jetting
>1)aggravates speech problems,
>2)causes uncomfortable incessant tongue rubbing teeth habits,

These two you will MOST LIKELY adjust to in a month.

>3) Is unaesthetic. From this 3/4 angle I wanted you to see it's
>apparent the teeth don't conform to the other side and the over
>jetting over my lip is quite ugly.

I can see that.

Well, ugly no way. But larger than you might expect.
How was the old bridge?

>
>Joel: You (Tedi) wrote: The lab thinks my bite for the original mold
>was off.
>REPLY:
>I do not believe this is so. Otherwise the left side would not meet so
>precisely.
>
>Tedi: Then why did the teeth fit the mold and not in my mouth?

Fit .. you mean conform to soft tissue and lips ...... I bet the
bridge "fits" the teeth okay as it "fits" the stone model ....

>*****
>
>Joel: YOU WROTE:
>The difficult thing is that my gum on the right side is raised
>significantly.
>REPLY:
>Said differently,
>2. You have some ridge recession meaning recession of the bone
>underlying where tooth #6 and #7 were removed.
>3. #8 almost matches crown #9 (not part of the bridge, right?) and is
>slightly larger to blend with #7 and #6 which are considerably
>larger.
>Tedi: Exactly. I asked the lab to do this. It didn't add to the over
>jet, which I asked him to grind back -- and he didn't. His explanation
>wasn't clear.

You know, I can see it either way ........ ground back would be
another look, but the teeth would slope back to meet the ridge.

The problem is the ridge has receded (recession).

I am still wondering what the old bridge looked like ... was it okay
in the looks department?

>Only that he thought my bite in my mouth was different
>than the one on the mold. I asked him to please study the cast of the
>original bridge before it was drilled off at it was 'almost'perfect

Advice to all dentists reading this!

TAKE a quick alginate and pour a model! Send to lab.

>He
>did and noticed, despite the teeth being longer than the other side
>that 6,7, and 8 were "flatter" or not jetting out causing a
>'space'behind. It would have meant lost time for him and too much work
>to 'grind back' 6, 7, 8 because the space behind 6,7,8 was still open.
>He'd have had to add more porcelain here and also to the length of
>3,4, and 5. to close the gap.

Still can be done if you are unhappy ....... Grinding and reglazing
porcelain is done in one day in the lab ........

>This was too complicated for him to want
>to get into it and he said it was the Dentists problem.
>Joel: The only possibility would be to cut back the necks of all of
>the
>teeth on the bridge which would give a decided "shrunken-back
>appearance." Whether or not that would be better or worse depends on
>the smile line and how much shows when you laugh and speak.

>Tedi: If by cutting back you mean the same as what I meant when saying
>'grinding back' I think the above sentence addresses this.

Yes.

>another
>thought I have is that grinding or cutting back the amount needed may
>have come to close to the underlying metal and the cause would have
>been lost. Perhaps the lab guy knew this. There were TERRIFIC
>language and cultural problems between us.

Yep, none of the lab guys speak English (when patients are around)
..... Afterwards you find out they are moonlighting as instructors in
Berlitz.

> That's not to say another
>lab would have solved the problem any better, but since the last one
>had - and he was from another culture also, I know it can be done. I
>just found out my DDS was a cosmetic DDS at one time so I am indeed
>surprised.

I was a cosmetic dentist until NARS and Vidal Sasson caught on ......

>5. The overbite and over jet is a result of all of this. Over jet is
>the
>horizontal "jetting out" of the teeth you mention below.
>SUMMARY:
>How does it "feel?" I mean the bite.
>
>
>Tedi: Horribe! There is no bite at all on the new bridge side and
>quite a bit of pressure is put all on my left side causing the 12 and
>14 to hurt more.

What about when the old bridge was in place? Did the posterior teeth
on the right side contact?

>The offer of three new crowns to close the bite meant well but "free"
>anything can't solve the jetting out problem which FEELS awful to my
>tongue, LOOKS awful to my and others eyes,

Then it needs to come off and be replaced. This should not be "on you"
either.

>and SOUNDS bad when I
>speak. I can't stress theses three issues enough.
>
>Joel: I would tell the dentist you
>realize it is a difficult case and he did whatever he could to
>maximize esthetics.
>
>Tedi: I don't agree. To say otherwise would be a lie.

Okay, I do lie quite a bit and if you read anything from Jan Drew you
already know that. Actually I meant that as a tactful overture .......

>He sent me to
>the lab at MY request, that's all he did. He was willing to
>permenantly cement the bridge in place the momement I arrived, crooked
>smile and all, until I physically stopped the assistant from
>destroying the temporary bridge and I became quite upset ove the
>slanty teeth.

Yup,no good!

It is wise to let the patient see a mirror and even wear it home with
temporary cement just ot make sure ...... as you can tell I am not a
high pressure guy ......

>Joel. Then tell him you will live with it for three months and then
>come
>back and re-evaluate. The issue of the upper
>I have a sense you will adjust and it will be okay.
>
>
>Tedi: Telling him I'll live with it for three months before
>re-evaluating will do two things: prolong the issue and prolong the
>pain in 12 and 14 from biting down on that left side only for another
>three months.

Okay then it must come out! There is no other choice, right?

{See my method? You TOLD me the answer}

> It's only been a week and the pain is getting worse day
>by day. Yes I would accept the three lower teeth to close the bite
>during this three months period if the DDS is prepared to accept my
>response in three months time no matter what the response.
>Reminder: This over jetting
>
>1)aggravates speech problems, (3 months of severe lisping?)
>2)causes uncomfortable incessant tongue rubbing teeth habits, (I doubt
>I'd get used to the feel of unsymmetrical teeth. My tongue feels
>'lost' is space on the right side.
>3) Is unaesthetic. From this 3/4 angle I wanted you to see it's
>apparent the teeth don't conform to the other side and the over
>jetting in my opened mouth while speaking is the answer to the
>question in my mind concerning my entire person: What's wrong with
>this picture? She lisps and has protruding teeth on that one side.
>

K

Needs to come off!

RESOLVED.

Written in stone.

So it is written, so it shall be done ......

[I have been spending too much times in religious groups ~ it is
affecting my speech]

>Joel: Please keep us informed.
>
>Thanks for your opinion which has helped me gather my thoughts on this
>issue.

Exactly! That is what really counts! You have rehearsed what you need
to say to the dentist!

>I wonder if others might say something else? I understand the
>wisdom of the advise about telling him I'll live with it for three
>months and then come back and re-evaluate. And it would be good advise
>if I thought there was any chance it would work, but I already know
>what's ahead.

Yup.

>It may leave the DDS thinking I feel he's competent and that I really
>trust he may be right, and why not opt for a longer trial rather than
>go through the pain, misery and aggravation all over again in an
>effort to have me feel comfortable and satisfied for what could be the
>rest of my life?
>
>Truth is: By saying one thing and thinking the opposite I'd be making
>making a fool out of the man with this dishonesty.

rght you are!

> I have far more
>respect for my fellow humans then to secretly lie to gain their
>temporary favor and in return, I expect the same. I want to be treated
>with professionalism, not coddled.
>
>I don't think destroying my temporary bridge on that first visit was
>professional.

He can make another one in 20 or 30 minutes or his assistant can.

>How was he going to send the bridge back to the lab for
>adjustments without having to make me and his assistant spend a full
>hour remaking the six tooth temp?

Okay an hour ......

>Obviously he wasn't thinking, or thought I wouldn't notice the
>difference if the bridge was not adequate, or he was rushing me for
>whatever reason he may have.

Yup, high pressure ....

>Nor do I think the lab people displayed any more professionalism by
>acting as if "it were all in my head" - and it was my 'faulty bite' on
>the mold that caused the problem (as if I could help that?)

Do not fault them ~ they had an upcoming heavy evening at Berlitz.

>
>Ethically speaking: I went to him on the first consult, explained the
>problems that were ahead and I asked him point blank: Do you think you
>can handle this, yes or no? Are you sure?

I know the answer .... YES!

>He said yes, Yes, but apparently was mistaken. Now I'm thinking: if
>DDS's video taped their sessions much controvery could be easily
>settled by reviewing these tapes.

Were there any hidden cameras? I love Sixty Minutes shows....

>I simply want him to correct his costly mistake or pay me back and
>I'll go elsewhere because: a job worth doing is worth doing well, and
>because in the beginning he continually said his only concern was in
>making me happy which it turns out is an outright lie.

Yup.

>
>Sorry if it seems like I'm sounding off to you, I'm not. I'm grateful
>for your evaluation though I wish I could afford to see a another DDS
>in person for evaluation so he-she could get a better look than you
>had with those photos.

No problem at all ~ glad to be of service ....

>The nightmarish thought of redoing this bridge is upsetting me no end.
>I shouldn't have to go through all this nonsense. One year ago I
>finally got some sort of dental insurance and I paid a visit to the
>dentist because #14 and #12 were sore. A gum specialist then did some
>scraping - didn't help. Then I had bridge #17 through #20. Then when
>finances allowed a few months later I took out a loan and paid the DDS
>I now use - since my DDS left the practice for his own elsewhere -
>
>Now I'm told the 17 through 20 are too low,

I do not think so .......... or do you mean 29 through 32 on the right
side??

>the new bridge feels,
>looks and sounds bad, and the original reason for going to the DDS one
>year ago remains unsolved. I want this bridge to be OK before
>proceding with another.

Yup.

>This is so depressing, you have no idea what a
>drain this is taking on my emotional and financial resources.

I can imagine ......

> I'll
>meet with the DDS and another DDS Tuesday and hear what they have to
>say after I speak my piece.
>
>Why, I ask you, do dentist's get involved with situations they may hot
>be able to handle well in the first place?

There is no predicting actually. Many times I tackle such a tough case
that no one in their right mind would tackle it ~ it turns out
FANTASTIC. Other times its a simple case and I flub it!

>Why aren't there any
>written and signed agreements other than the financial ones? And
>regards the DDS and the dental lab, what about pride in workmanship?
>That's the big question.

Yup. Esthetics are often a compromise,,,, let's hope this get's
resolved to your satisfaction. Keep us informed!


Joel

>Tedi.
>THE END
>
>
>
>
>
>Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

>
>
>
>
>
>
>Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

--
Joel M. Eichen, .
Philadelphia PA

STANDARD DISCLAIMER applies:
<You fill it in>

Joel, I am far too pooped to pop and don't have the energy to respond
to your every question at this time. Right you are though, about the
lower bridge being misnumbered by me. Thanks, I just learned
something. I recently emailed you a quick sketch of my overjetting
teeth. I can use this sketch when I go to the consult instead of again
and again putting fingers in my mouth and being unable to point or
make my point. The other side has a tiny amount of overjetting not
worth mentioning. The past bridge was in only about nine years.
RE: jetting out.
My teeth are not 'made that way'. There are no teeth, just posts and
a stump of a tooth. There's no need for the extending crowns to jut
out.
Yet another problem difficult to get across to the lab guy which by
the way has more to do with IQ rather than language, it that as a
child I had a huge gap inbetween my two front teeth. Later I was in an
auto accident where I lost some teeth - every other it's seemed. Long
story short, where the two front teeth meet is actually off center! So
trying to match up with the center of the two below isn't possible,
nor is it understood. So, if it looks good on the mold, but not in my
mouth syndrom is complicated by this at well.

Gawd, I'm so sick of talking about my teeth. By the time I get to the
DDS Tuesday, I'll be jet streaming ahead of him. To show respect, (I
guess) I'll try to pretend I'm hearing everything for the first time.
How I hate that kind of nonsense. Inside me, I want to say: OK. Let's
do the deed and do it right this time and no buts about it I want your
support at the lab if needed.

BTW, Joel, before he cemented it in I complained that I asked the lab
to please color #6 a tad bit darker. He didn't! Complaining to the
DDS he said sternly: No one likes the lab to do that. I argued, yes
they do. He said forget it.
What a load of crap this all is. AND, I think he's a bit on the
sadistic side.
Pleasant dreams. Please excuse the misspellings and grammatical
errors. I'm not rereading this.
Tedi


Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

> On 17 Aug 2003 13:37:39 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:
>

>
> Yup, confusing.
>
> My take: This is your bite. Do not monkey with it. Is the overbite
> visibly noticeable to others? Family? Friends?
>
> If not, live with it and see if it feels okay. If so, take the doc up
> on the three-crown offer in 3-4 months ........
>
>

>
> so its gum irritation but no decay on 12-13-14?
>
>

>
>
> K
>

>
> I can see it and I know exactly what you mean .......
>
> But this is how your teeth are what with the upper bone recession.
>

>
> These two you will MOST LIKELY adjust to in a month.
>
>

>
> I can see that.
>
> Well, ugly no way. But larger than you might expect.
> How was the old bridge?
>
>

>
> Fit .. you mean conform to soft tissue and lips ...... I bet the
> bridge "fits" the teeth okay as it "fits" the stone model ....
>
>
>
>

>
> You know, I can see it either way ........ ground back would be
> another look, but the teeth would slope back to meet the ridge.
>
> The problem is the ridge has receded (recession).
>
> I am still wondering what the old bridge looked like ... was it okay
> in the looks department?
>
>

>
> Advice to all dentists reading this!
>
> TAKE a quick alginate and pour a model! Send to lab.
>

>
> Still can be done if you are unhappy ....... Grinding and reglazing
> porcelain is done in one day in the lab ........
>
>

>
>

>
>
> Yes.
>

>
>
> Yep, none of the lab guys speak English (when patients are around)
> .... Afterwards you find out they are moonlighting as instructors in
> Berlitz.
>
>

>
> I was a cosmetic dentist until NARS and Vidal Sasson caught on ......
>
>
>

>
> What about when the old bridge was in place? Did the posterior teeth
> on the right side contact?
>
>

>
> Then it needs to come off and be replaced. This should not be "on you"
> either.
>

>
> Okay, I do lie quite a bit and if you read anything from Jan Drew you
> already know that. Actually I meant that as a tactful overture .......
>
>

>
> Yup,no good!
>
> It is wise to let the patient see a mirror and even wear it home with
> temporary cement just ot make sure ...... as you can tell I am not a
> high pressure guy ......
>

>
> Okay then it must come out! There is no other choice, right?
>
> {See my method? You TOLD me the answer}
>
>

>
> K
>
> Needs to come off!
>
> RESOLVED.
>
> Written in stone.
>
> So it is written, so it shall be done ......
>
> [I have been spending too much times in religious groups ~ it is
> affecting my speech]
>
>

>
> Exactly! That is what really counts! You have rehearsed what you need
> to say to the dentist!
>
>

>
> Yup.
>

>
> rght you are!
>

>
> He can make another one in 20 or 30 minutes or his assistant can.
>

>
> Okay an hour ......
>
>

>
> Yup, high pressure ....
>

>
> Do not fault them ~ they had an upcoming heavy evening at Berlitz.
>
>

>
> I know the answer .... YES!
>

>
> Were there any hidden cameras? I love Sixty Minutes shows....
>
>

>
> Yup.
>

>
> No problem at all ~ glad to be of service ....
>
>

>
> I do not think so .......... or do you mean 29 through 32 on the right
> side??
>

>
> Yup.
>

>
> I can imagine ......
>

>
> There is no predicting actually. Many times I tackle such a tough case
> that no one in their right mind would tackle it ~ it turns out
> FANTASTIC. Other times its a simple case and I flub it!
>

>
> Yup. Esthetics are often a compromise,,,, let's hope this get's
> resolved to your satisfaction. Keep us informed!
>
>
> Joel
>
>

Joel writes: Perhaps he could opt for a second career as dentist in
Little Shop of Horrors!

Yeah, right. I'll be sure to mention that to the DDS should things go
terribly wrong at the "consult" - I'll be asking way too much for his
mind to absorb.

I'll want him to say: "Well of course you can have a bridge that feels
normal, looks normal, and causes no speech problems - even if it takes
months to get it right"

Since this mans conception of what feels, looks and sounds normal
are from some strange point of view hitherto unknown to me, his
promises are empty.

Future famous postumous quote:

"I can see where this man, though not unpleasant looking, could never
make good company for me at any age. Perhaps he could opt for a second
career as dentist in 'Little Shop of Horrors'!"

Tedi of Six Crowns.
















Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

> Perhaps he could opt for a second career as dentist in Little Shop of
> Horrors!
>
>
> On 17 Aug 2003 22:16:38 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:
>

On a more serious note, Joel, how's your legalese?

The DDS will notice the addition of more sophistocated dental terms to
my vocabulary and conclude I've done some research. As I am 'bound and
determined' for him to agree with me that the over jet is unacceptable
and won't be changed with the addition of new bottom teeth to close
the bite he left open, I'd like to say I've gotten another -- though
uncertified, opinion.
When he asks, from whom, how far may I go with this?

Since he ignored my previous attempts to make him notice and change
the over jet and the open bite, well before he cemented the bridge in
place, I feel he owes me big. Should I give him another chance to
perhaps botch up, or should I make a case out this if he won't return
my money. I honestly don't even trust him or the other DDS to remove
the bridge without taking care not to botch the job and leave no root
for the next bridge. The gum (or bone)of course, will raise even more.

If I'm not satisfied with the meeting tomorrow, how do I handle
getting my money back, and at the same time keep the bridge in my
mouth until a new dentist is found from my restricted list of
dentists who I think might be able ot deal with the challange of
producing an acceptable bridge?

If the DDS insists in putting a temp in, I'd like to hold out for a
written agreed upon limited amount of time the bridge may stay in
until the new DDS I like is found.

The emotional tole this has taken on me is noticable in that I've lost
five pounds in a week and I'm light to begin with,I've barely left the
house and I'm a social creature, and I've thought of little else but
replacing the bridge with a more natural feeling and looking one.

This is getting serious. I'd rather be outdoors swimming and such
instead of brooding.
Tedi








Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

> Perhaps he could opt for a second career as dentist in Little Shop of
> Horrors!
>
>
> On 17 Aug 2003 22:16:38 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:
>

On 18 Aug 2003 12:06:38 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:

>Joel writes: Perhaps he could opt for a second career as dentist in
>Little Shop of Horrors!
>
>Yeah, right. I'll be sure to mention that to the DDS should things go
>terribly wrong at the "consult" - I'll be asking way too much for his
>mind to absorb.
>
>I'll want him to say: "Well of course you can have a bridge that feels
>normal, looks normal, and causes no speech problems - even if it takes
>months to get it right"

Often a wise choice! A difficult job well done can bring you lots of
referrals ... conversely, a job handled poorly affects one's
reputation.

Joel

>
>Since this mans conception of what feels, looks and sounds normal
>are from some strange point of view hitherto unknown to me, his
>promises are empty.
>
>Future famous postumous quote:
>
>"I can see where this man, though not unpleasant looking, could never
>make good company for me at any age. Perhaps he could opt for a second
>career as dentist in 'Little Shop of Horrors'!"
>
>Tedi of Six Crowns.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

--
Joel M. Eichen, .
Philadelphia PA

STANDARD DISCLAIMER applies:
<You fill it in>

On 18 Aug 2003 12:51:04 -0700, (Tedi) wrote:

>On a more serious note, Joel, how's your legalese?

Unfortunately, it too good, but FORTUNATELY not from personal
experience but solely from interest ......

>
>The DDS will notice the addition of more sophistocated dental terms to
>my vocabulary and conclude I've done some research.

Fine. An informed patient! Sy Sims approves!

> As I am 'bound and
>determined' for him to agree with me that the over jet is unacceptable
>and won't be changed with the addition of new bottom teeth to close
>the bite he left open, I'd like to say I've gotten another -- though
>uncertified, opinion.

Yup fine!

>When he asks, from whom, how far may I go with this?

Joel M. Eichen D.D.S.

Remember the disclaimer though ....... no one was seen the condition
of your teeth in person and therefore we cannot DIAGNOSE or offer
treatment options. Each state qualifies its own practitioners for
dental therapy separately.

Dental License!

>
>Since he ignored my previous attempts to make him notice and change
>the over jet and the open bite, well before he cemented the bridge in
>place, I feel he owes me big.

Yes, I was quite surprised as this is a difficult esthetic challenge.

>Should I give him another chance to
>perhaps botch up, or should I make a case out this if he won't return
>my money. I honestly don't even trust him or the other DDS to remove
>the bridge without taking care not to botch the job and leave no root
>for the next bridge. The gum (or bone)of course, will raise even more.

I would let him do the job if he is willing ..... that is jumping
ahead though.

FOR OTHERS:

Please take an alginate impression and pour a stone model for the lab
to follow when redoing a case like this!

[We tend to overestimate our abilities sometimes]

I had a similar case but the reverse. The lab had undercontoured the
case (Tedi's is overcontoured].

I added white wax while the patient was in the chair until she was
very happy with my bulking-up of the case.

Next I had the patient swishh-h-h-h-h with ice water and I took an
impression of the wax-up in place. I poured two master casts, sending
one to the lab and keeping my own master cast to check on them (and to
confer with the patient) that the new porcelain was accurate.

What happened?

Success.

Sometimes the dentist forgets to consider all possibilities, other
times the lab takes a shortcut and does not make their own impression.
I do it for them! After all, in the end its my problem!

Joel

>
>If I'm not satisfied with the meeting tomorrow, how do I handle
>getting my money back, and at the same time keep the bridge in my
>mouth until a new dentist is found from my restricted list of
>dentists who I think might be able ot deal with the challange of
>producing an acceptable bridge?
>
>If the DDS insists in putting a temp in, I'd like to hold out for a
>written agreed upon limited amount of time the bridge may stay in
>until the new DDS I like is found.
>
>The emotional tole this has taken on me is noticable in that I've lost
>five pounds in a week and I'm light to begin with,I've barely left the
>house and I'm a social creature, and I've thought of little else but
>replacing the bridge with a more natural feeling and looking one.
>
>This is getting serious. I'd rather be outdoors swimming and such
>instead of brooding.
>Tedi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <> wrote in message news:<>. ..

--
Joel M. Eichen, .
Philadelphia PA

STANDARD DISCLAIMER applies:
<You fill it in>